“Something in me has always been drawn to these different states of consciousness”
Una Meistere
An interview with English musician and producer Jon Hopkins; his new album “Music for Psychedelic Therapy” was released on November 12
English musician and producer Jon Hopkins’ latest release and sixth solo album, “Music for Psychedelic Therapy”, came out on November 12.
It was inspired by Hopkins’ own experiments with psychedelics, trance, and consciousness-expanding states (he has been practicing Transcendental Meditation (TM) and the Wim Hof method daily since 2015) as well as by the spirit of the times. The world is currently experiencing a renaissance of so-called psychedelic substances, and although their use and distribution is still banned in many countries, the process of decriminalisation and legalisation has begun on a global scale and now appears to be unstoppable. Alongside eleven US states, Uruguay and Canada, in October of this year Luxembourg became the first country in Europe to legalise production and consumption of cannabis. Under the legalisation, people aged 18 and over will be able to legally grow up to four cannabis plants per household for personal use.
The global mental health crisis and the fact that psychedelic therapy has been recognised as a legitimate field of research are also important drivers of this process. Many parallel clinical trials currently underway around the world show good results for the use of MDMA (3,4-methylenedioxy-N-methylamphetamine), psilocybin and ketamine as safe and effective treatments for depression, post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), nicotine dependence, alcohol dependence, and end-of-life anxiety. Two flagships in this niche are the Johns Hopkins Center for Psychedelic and Consciousness Research in the USA and Imperial College London.
The use of music as an instrument in psychedelic therapy is also the focus of several clinical studies. It is known to have been used for centuries in First Nations ceremonies, creating an appropriate and nuanced sound accompaniment for each of the plant medicines used in a particular case, thereby enhancing their efficacy. Today, the power and importance of the interaction between music and psychedelics is confirmed by modern neuroscience. As Mendel Kaelen, neuroscientist and founder of the Wavepaths platform, said in an interview with Spiriterritory.com: “Now, when it comes to music and psychedelics together, you’re basically talking about a brain that has become way more receptive to experience information in a freer, more flexible way. So when a person under the influence of a psychedelic is exposed to a melodic structure or a particular musical experience, from an experience perspective, he or she experiences more depth, a more detailed and richer imagination.” The interest in psychedelic therapy and the renaissance of psychedelia has also stimulated the emergence of a new genre that, adapting to the streaming era and the technologies of our time, offers a wide range of experiences, from AI-generated music to various playlists and DJ mixes.
“We're entering an era where this kind of therapy is going to be legal and widespread, and you need to have music for it,” says Hopkins in an interview with The Guardian. With his new album, “Music for Psychedelic Therapy”, Hopkins hopes to use music as medicine through sonic exploration. The album offers a new kind of meditative musical journey: for those looking to enhance their connection with psychedelic therapy and for sober listeners looking to deepen their meditation practices through immersive sound. Interestingly, the album was timed to last for exactly the length of a typical ketamine trip.
“[‘Music For Psychedelic Therapy’] is an album with no beats, not one drum sound – something that is closer to a classical symphony than a dance/electronica record. Something that is more like having an experience than listening to a piece of music. It is not ambient, classical or drone but has elements of all three. For me, it’s a place as much as it is a sound. It works for the sober mind but takes on a new dimension entirely when brought into a psychedelic ceremony,” says Hopkins.
“Music For Psychedelic Therapy” was produced and recorded by Jon Hopkins. Field recordings from Tayos Caves, Ecuador are by Mendel Kaelen, and multi-dimensional synthesis and woodland surround are by 7RAYS. The album also includes the track “Sit Around the Fire”, which was done together with East Forest and features the voice of Ram Dass, the legendary American spiritual teacher and guru.
Jon Hopkins is a Grammy-nominated English electronic musician and producer who has worked with artists like Brian Eno, Coldplay, Bonobo, David Lynch, Disclosure, Four Tet, and Purity Ring, among others. His previous and fifth studio album, “Singularity”, received a Grammy nomination for Best Dance/Electronic Album in December 2018.
This conversation with Hopkins took place a few days before the release of “Music For Psychedelic Therapy”, and at the very start he suggested turning off the cameras of our Zoom call so that only our voices would be sounding/vibrating in our respective rooms.
There was a great article on psychedelics and psychedelic therapy yesterday in The Guardian with the title “Will the magic of psychedelics transform psychiatry?” What role does music play in this process? You already mentioned that “maybe we could speak about a new and emerging genre of music....”
I think there are so many pre-existing playlists that people have been using for psychedelic therapy, and there are also some new apps which have generative music in them. I’m a traditionalist and I like making albums. Album-length music is a really good format for me.
And, you know, it’s a highly inspiring subject. I’ve also had many psychedelic experiences myself over the last six years in particular, but stretching back, I was 27 when I had my first proper one. And you know, it’s just such an inspiring space when your normal brain is taking a rest and the highly perceptive, more complex parts of yourself come into being. You know, when you move away from that problem-solving mode into a whole different realm of reality. It’s incredible.
So, yeah, I feel like every experience I have goes into a kind of melting pot inside me, in my subconscious, and then it sort of comes out through the music. So it stands to reason that having a number of psychedelic experiences over the years would result in the music being changed in some way. I really believe this album has quite a strong presence from my DMT experiences in particular, but also my psilocybin and ketamine experiences. And equally, it has strong influence from all the years I’ve spent meditating. It’s been about 20 years of that now – just something in me has always been drawn to these different states of consciousness. And I find that just to be such a wealth of inspiration.
I feel like every experience I have goes into a kind of melting pot inside me, in my subconscious, and then it sort of comes out through the music.
What makes music a medicine?
Well, I don’t know what makes it like that, but it certainly is one. I mean, I am completely convinced that there’s something inherently important about music for human beings. I found out the other day that there is actually a specific part of the brain or maybe a specific type of neuron whose sole purpose is for the understanding and performing of music. So that’s kind of proof, really, that we are supposed to listen to music. And it does something deep for us, whether that’s the high energetic side – I’ve written a lot of dance music in my life and a lot of techno, and that’s a very different sound from what this record does – but in many ways it’s the same thing, which is entering a different state of consciousness, whether it’s through listening or through movement, or a combination of the two.
It seems to be the case that music does something to our physiology. You know, you can measurably lower your heart rate. If you find yourself being relaxed by music, your body will respond and follow that. I think if it can take you out of a dreamlike state into a rest and repair state, then on a basic level, it’s already doing something quite profound for you.
As we know, music and sound plays a very important part in indigenous ceremonies. For example, sometimes in an ayahuasca ceremony it is difficult to understand what is doing the main work – the plant medicine or the icaros*...
Yeah, I think it’s a mixture. I think the two are together, and the two would never be separate in indigenous ceremonies, in my understanding. And so I think that’s one of the reasons why I wanted to make such a precise statement in the title of the album. Even though it is also just an album of music to be listened to in any state of consciousness, at the same time, it’s directed or rather inspired by that space. It can take you to so many places and safely guide you into parts of yourself that you might not have accessed otherwise.
How would you characterise your emotional state when you are creating music?
Well, I’m really just following what I think of as a force that is way greater than myself. And creativity is something that’s in all of us. With this album, more than any others, I felt like I was channelling the plant medicines that I’ve experienced.
I think anyone who’s had those experiences, particularly with things like DMT or ayahuasca, will know that there is a huge amount of imagery and information that comes to you through those experiences. And it’s taken me 22 years of making electronic music to be able to begin to translate how I experience some of those feelings into something that everyone can listen to. I'm not saying I’ve succeeded, I’m just saying that’s what I’m trying to do.
With this album, more than any others, I felt like I was channelling the plant medicines that I’ve experienced.
Is it possible to translate psychedelic experience into music? Especially since sometimes sound is present during the experience itself and it’s not possible to identify its source.
Of course, this is only my own translation. And that’s why there are so many sounds of nature on the record. And one of the main inspirations – because I took drums away from the picture – was the sounds that I heard around me in the wilderness and in magical spaces in nature. It felt like it was a duet in many ways, between my instruments and the instruments of nature – the choirs of insects and birds that you hear out there in the rainforest.
Your album’s first single, “Sit Around the Fire”, is a collaboration with producer/ceremony guide East Forest and the late guru Ram Dass. Did you have the chance to meet Ram Dass in person?
No, unfortunately. But I know that East Forest did, and East Forest had previously made music using his talks. So I was very honoured to be invited to do that as well; it was an amazing thing. And, you know, I never imagined while I was making this record that I would end up with a beautiful Ram Dass talk at the end of it.
Moreover, the title “Sit Around the Fire” reminds us how important set and setting are in the psychedelic experience. Although discussions over legalisation of these substances are becoming more common, and in many places in the world they have already been legalised, there definitely is a dark side to is as well.
The legalisation is absolutely vital. I think it’s generally understood, and I think even agreed upon by experts, that it is safer to have these things in the overground instead of in the underground. Because if it’s all hidden away and there’s prohibition, people are still going to take them, but they’re going to take them without any idea of knowing if they’re pure. Or how to go about it or how powerful of an experience it can be, and how it can open up things that you didn't necessarily want to be opened up or whatever. So legality brings in the choice of the patient or the participant in the ceremony or whatever – it gives you the choice to go in there with the right intention and the right experience. I think the dangers tend to happen when the dosage is wrong and the setting is wrong, and the person isn’t in the right state of mind, or they haven’t been screened properly. All these things I think are factors that need to be taken into account at all times. And while it’s all kept in darkness, and while the authorities in many countries pretend that these things don’t still exist, or wish they didn’t exist, then you put people at risk by doing that.
The legalisation is absolutely vital. I think it’s generally understood, and I think even agreed upon by experts, that it is safer to have these things in the overground instead of in the underground.
You’ve always been interested in different trance states. What fascinates you in those sometimes quite extreme journeys?
Well, I think there's something deep in me which doesn’t think that regular consciousness is the only answer. I don't think that every problem can be solved, you know, in the rationalist reductionist way. I think there’s more to life than that – I think life exists on many levels. And it’s been agreed on that reality is a construct of the human brain anyway. Without the human brain, it’s just information floating around. And that information has to reach the human before it can be decoded or encoded into something that we can perceive. So there’s no such thing as objective reality anyway. And therefore, looking beyond what you see and feel in normal consciousness, for me, has always been an instinct.
So there’s no such thing as objective reality anyway. And therefore, looking beyond what you see and feel in normal consciousness, for me, has always been an instinct.
It started off with psychedelics, of course. Well, with cannabis when I was young, but I quickly became interested in meditation as well, because I didn’t want to have to take something to achieve any different state. And sometimes it happens without you doing anything. Sometimes you can be hit by a remarkable burst of presence just by going on a walk on a beautiful day, you know. There’s also evidence that humans and even lots of animals throughout history have had a natural tendency towards consciousness alteration. It’s as if we’ve always done it. You look back 30,000 years, 40,000 years, and you’ll find cave paintings in which the mushroom is very clearly represented as a very important being. So yeah, I just think I’m like anyone else, really. I’ve just explored that part of my life quite thoroughly.
Having practiced meditation, especially Transcendental Meditation, for so long, as well as the Wim Hof breathing technique, have you ever managed to get into a state comparable to a psychedelic experience?
Well, the TM doesn’t really take you to a particularly psychedelic place – it can take me to a very neutral, beautiful, peaceful place underneath everything. I’ve described it as like going down and down and down under all the layers of tension and into a layer of bliss. But it’s not particularly psychedelic; I don’t see things or don’t return with information specifically. But the Wim Hof Method, well, if you’ve done it you know that if you do 60 to 100 breaths and long retentions, you can have some truly extraordinary experiences, it’s true. And they are very similar to some of the DMT moments I’ve experienced but they’re much shorter, and you also get to control them. And I guess it’s kind of safer in that way.
Yeah, I remember last spring Wim Hof did a kind of on-line retreat with 3000 participants, and we were all breathing together, guided by him. It was a very powerful experience, but as you said, it is very short.
What are the main lessons you have learned about yourself and the world during those trance states, meditations, psychedelic trips? I find it interesting that in an interview with Wavepath’s founder Mendel Kaelen, you said: “What I’ve learned about difficulties in mental and physical health is that they can be seen as gifts, as long as you respond to them in the right way.”
Oh, did I say that? That’s an interesting thing. I don’t know what I meant exactly by that, but I can only speak for myself. Well, one example I could give is that I have quite compromised sleep – my sleep became quite bad when I started international touring. And a lot of my life has been spent DJ-ing quite late at night and things like that. So I have quite bad sleep, and I learned the Wim Hof Method and Transcendental Meditation specifically because I thought they might help me learn how to sleep better. And they have, of course, but they also teach you a huge amount more. Insomnia is a part physiological and part mental condition, really – not that there's maybe anything to divide the two anyway. But I found that you might learn something – let’s say you suffer from anxiety, and if you learned to meditate, you might very well help your anxiety a lot, but you will also discover a lot of other things. For instance, you might start to realise that you’re part of something bigger than just yourself – these are all the sort of realisations that people have when they meditate. I suppose in that way you could say that it is kind of a gift – they are signposts from the body and the psyche that point to what you need to be doing.
And a lot of my life has been spent DJ-ing quite late at night and things like that. So I have quite bad sleep, and I learned the Wim Hof Method and Transcendental Meditation specifically because I thought they might help me learn how to sleep better. And they have, of course, but they also teach you a huge amount more.
Did you manage to solve your sleep problem and other issues through these practices, or is it still an ongoing process?
I don t think anyone could say they’ve solved all their problems. I would say that I’ve definitely improved my sleep situation a lot. I suppose one of the things that’s happened is rather than be frustrated when I’m not asleep, I can meditate and feel peaceful – you know, so my body can be at rest. I might not get all the sleep I need, but I’m a much happier person generally through having learned these things.
In Buddhism, the universe was created with the primordial “Aum/Om”. You have also worked with singing bowls. How would you describe your relationship to harmonics and harmonic sounds?
I don’t know any kind of precise terminology, but I was fascinated by the singing bowl that my step-mom bought me from an antique shop in India. She’s Indian. I was just so hypnotised by the sounds that it generates – all these different overtones and harmonics. And they immediately tune you into that “aum” sound that you’re describing. I don’t think my relationship is any more complex than just being drawn to that and wanting to explore it in music – it’s a really powerful thing.
Do you have a favourite piece of music for a psychedelic trip/therapy session (created by you or other musicians), which helps you to go really deep into yourself?
I spoke to another musician about this, and something he said was that his motto for creating music is to create the music that he wishes existed in the world. So, in many ways I did make this album firstly for myself, because I wanted to hear and I wanted to translate experiences into something which would be nourishing and helpful on a psychedelic journey. And I purposely don’t listen to this album very often now because I want it to remain a precious thing, in a way. There’s loads of other stuff, of course; I mean, I really love many different artists, for sure.
Who are you? Did you get closer to the answer to this fundamental question through music, through meditation, through psychedelics...?
I suppose so. I mean, in the sense that through those experiences you perhaps start to understand that you are not who you thought you were. You know, you’re not your thoughts, you’re not your appearance, you’re not the things that you project upon yourself and not the things that other people project upon you. You are the witness to all those thoughts.
This is a sort of basic point that Ram Dass is speaking about in the talk that I use on the record, but also something I’ve experienced most – I think for the first time, possibly – through my Kundalini meditation, which I started doing when I was 21. I remember experiencing the neutral mind as it is described and thinking: Oh, so if I can observe my thoughts, then I am not my thoughts, and therefore, what am I? And, of course, it’s a great mystery, really. No one really knows...but consciousness itself, I suppose.
What is music? Is music a space?
I can’t answer that question, I’m afraid. I think it’s a beautiful mystery. Maybe it’s a way humans try and create things they can’t express in words. But then, maybe everything is musical in its own way.
And in some way, music is also a therapy and a tool with which to understand life and understand who we are.
Yes, I agree with that. I mean, it puts things into perspective for me, for sure. It’s always been the thing that makes sense of situations, and the act of actually creating it is like a pure flow-state experience. It’s very powerful.
Thank you very much!
Jon Hopkins. Photo: Steve Gullick
*Icaro – a South American indigenous colloquialism for magic song. Today this term is commonly used to describe medicine songs performed in vegetal ceremonies, especially by shamans in ayahuasca ceremonies. Source: Wikipedia.
Title image: Jon Hopkins. Photo: Steve Gullick
